The Safety Question Before Departure
Jim Lenz, GEAPS (Host)
A rail car is loaded, the paperwork is complete, and the facility is ready to move it out. But before that rail car leaves your property, there is a question worth asking. Are you certain it is safe to go? Because once that rail car enters the crater rail system, it may travel past homes, schools, churches, businesses, and entire communities. Amidst track defects in a properly secured car, an overlooked mechanical concern or a gap in employee training can create consequences that extend far beyond the facility. So what is a train operation responsible for expecting? What does effective track protection really look like? And how can a facility know that its people trained and rail cars are fully ready for movement? Today we are taking a closer look at rail safety in the industry crane setting and the responsibilities that come with setting the rail car to the facility. Let’s get started.
Meet The Rail Safety Experts
Jim Lenz, GEAPS (Host)
Welcome to the whole grain podcast, where we bring conversations, ideas, and expert perspectives from the green engineer processing industry. I’m your host, Jim Lenz, Director of Global Education and Training for the GEAPS, the Grain Elevator Processing Society. The Whole Grain Podcast now reaches listeners in 113 countries around the world. Whether you work in operations, maintenance, safety, engineering, management, grain quality, transportation, or another part of the essential industry, our purpose is to connect you with practical knowledge and experienced voices that can help you work more safely, make better decisions, and continue growing professionally. Today we are exploring track inspection, track protection, and the rail safety in grain operations. Joining me are two professionals from Northern Plains Rail Companies who bring each more than 35 years of railroad industry experience. Steven Fry is an assistant director of safety, training, and operating practices. Throughout his career, Stephen has served as a brakeman, conductor, locomotive engineer, engineer instructor, road foreman of engines, division train master, and rail safety trainer. His work now includes training related to track and rail car inspection, switches and derails, car securement, switching operations, air brake systems, and the safe operation of rail equipment. Also joining us is Noel Christensen, Superintendent of Training and Operating Practices. Noel’s career has included work in both railroad engineering and operations, safety and regulatory training, hazardous materials instruction, emergency response, and service as a hazardous materials inspector with the Federal Railroad Administration. In this conversation, we will discuss what grain facilities are responsible for when inspecting their track, what personnel should look for during regular inspections, and where facilities most commonly fall short. We will also explore what track protection means in practice, the dangers created by unsecured or improperly handled rail cars, and how the products being transported can affect risk and regulatory scrutiny. Stephen and Noelle will help us better understand the importance of railroad laws, operating practices, employee training, rail car inspection, and knowing when a car should or should not be allowed to leave a facility. And before we finish, we will ask them to share the warning signs they noticed when visiting an operation, the practices that distinguish strong rail safety programs and the most important actions brain facilities should start, stop, and continue doing. Those themes closely follow the practical progression of today’s interview from inspection and track protection, regulatory awareness, and real-world takeaways. Alright, joining us today is Stephen Fry, Assistant Director of Safety Training and Operating Practices. We also have on this team another member, Noah Christensen. He is superintendent of safety both of Northern Plain Rail Services. Thank you, gentlemen, for being on the podcast. Hey Jim, pleasure to be here. Thank you, sir. Looking forward to this conversation. I think it’ll help a lot of our listeners out there, although not all of our listeners who are working the green industry have rail systems that go in there. Fundamentally, rail is such a critical part of the grain industry, and many people are involved with that in one aspect, directly or indirectly. But if you look at Canadian rail systems, how much of that grain is efficiently moved through rail? Rail is a very efficient system. And in the United States, of course, we have a lot of rail lines and systems to help transport that along with other means of transportation systems. And we got the oceans, we got the ports, we got smaller facilities, we got regional facilities. Rail is important. Safety in rail, of course, is important. We care so much about that. So, hey, to get us started, gentlemen, if you don’t mind, tell us a little bit about your role with the organization and how they play within the greater industry in grain and outside of grain movement, and then also about your organization.
Steven Fry
Absolutely. I’ll start here. Jim, thank you very much. Uh so started my career 36 years ago, been in this rail industry for 36 years, spent 26 of that at Canadian Pacific, and then 10 years ago, I joined Northern Plains. Northern Plains is a unique uh in the sense that it’s it’s a two-sided coin. On one side, they are a railroad, just like BNSF or CP, however, not as big. On the other side, we’re contractors, and so we do uh we offer services that railroads typically don’t offer industry people. And so track, locomotive, training, hazardous material, we offer all that. So where we fit in onto this is uh we started doing rail safety training for Northern Plains about 10 years ago. And really honestly, we there was a need for it because in my industry, the railroad industry, class ones, uh CP, BNSF, Union Pacific, they average 13 fatalities a year. And an OSHA rig uh industry averages 15 fatalities a day. And so we saw a need for that as far as working around railroad equipment. That’s what uh that’s what we do when our training is FRA approved because not only do we teach customers, agricultural or or other, but we also teach other railroads. And so the training that we provide is the same training that railroad conductors, engineers, or people that work on the track, which we call maintenance away, same training that they get. And so it benefits the customer in that regard.
Noel Christensen
Very nice. Thanks for sharing. Noel. Jim, thanks for again for having us. Um spent 37 years in the rail industry myself, 25 years was with the Canadian Pacific, Kansas City. Started there swinging a spike mall just like everybody else does. Worked my way up through train service into management where I worked as a regulatory compliance manager, conducted classroom training of the new hires, recertification training, got involved with hazardous materials, and have spent the last 15 years working with men and women of the gas and oil industry, ensuring compliance as it applies to the Code of Federal regulations, and within our own organization as well.
Jim Lenz, GEAPS (Host)
That’s fantastic. Big dedication from both of you in the rail industry and of course, safety and education uh within that. And that’s neat that your organization found that there was a need for this. So not only do you service your own organization, of course, you service so much. And just kind of curious how much, what is your geographic range so far uh in terms of education and safety training?
Steven Fry
You know, I’ll be honest, the majority of our customers is Midwest, you know, agricultural stuff like that. But we’ve been finding uh the past probably seven years, uh a lot of uh been going on the West Coast a lot. We do go all over the United States. We have customers out in Washington, California, Texas, but uh right here where Northern Plains has made a home in North Dakota, because you know, we we we do a lot of track services and locomotive leasing and stuff like that. So we kind of have a reach into the industry in that regard. If we lease a locomotive to somebody or repair the track, then we can come do the training. So primarily our business is Midwest, but we do go
Track Inspection Responsibilities And Basics
Steven Fry
all over.
Jim Lenz, GEAPS (Host)
Let’s start with track inspection. From from your perspective, what are grain facilities actually responsible for when it comes to inspecting their track? I think a lot of listeners are really curious about your responses.
Steven Fry
Yeah, great question, Jim. And so a lot of the railroads, VNSF, Union Pacific, CP, their responsibility ends at the D rail in most cases. And then it’s up to the customer after that derail into their facility to maintain track gauge, ties, foilage for drainage, all that stuff. A couple of things depend on that too, though. If the railroad comes into your facility, or if they just shove them past the derail, and then it’s up to the customer to move those cars. Now, if the railroad is coming into your facility and spotting these cars for the customer, then the railroad’s gonna want to have a little piece of that inspection as well. In general, not all the time. If the railroad is coming into a facility, they want that inspected at least minimally every 30 days to make sure. Now, it doesn’t have to be professionally done by like a company by myself or anything like that, but they have to have knowledge of what they’re looking for. Uh, standard track gauge, the the width between the uh inner rail and one inner rail is 56 and a half inches. That’s standard track gauge. If it gets up to around 57 and a half or even 58 in most cases, you’re out of service because the railroad’s not going to come in there because the gauge is too wide, uh, or it could actually be too narrow. Some of the things to look for when a customer is doing track inspection is well, not only inspect the gauge, but you want to inspect if if you can see any movement happening. Like, for example, spikes being pulled up out of the tie or the tie plate rubbing against the uh the tie, uh, that’s gonna indicate movement. And the the key to that, Jim, is is this you’re gonna have two different measurements. You’re gonna have a static measurement, you’re just gonna put your tape measure in the middle of that rail. And if it says 56 and a half inches, you’d think you’re good. But if that tie plate has been scratching into that tie and it’s an inch scratch, that has to be added to your measurement. Because now you got two different measurements, one under load and one that’s not under load. And the railroad’s gonna take the one that’s under load. So if your regular measurement is 56 and a half inches and you add that scratch to it, now you’re at 57 and a half. And in some cases, the railroad might say, Well, that’s out of service. And so those are the things. Now, when you think of a rail yard, all your movement is gonna be in switches. That’s number one. Curves, number two, straight track pretty much lasts a long time. Um, couple things that uh that happen to that, though. If you got a lot of corn or a lot of uh wheat that are that is that is just lying on the track, uh, that’s gonna start eating at that at those ties, and they’re not gonna be as effective as you want them to be holding that gauge.
Jim Lenz, GEAPS (Host)
That’s fantastic.
Noel Christensen
Anything you want to add to that, you know, Steve kind of nailed that down pretty good. A facility dependent upon what the commodity is, they would want to take interest into their track inspections. Like Steve said, every 30 days with a uh a report doesn’t have to be a documented report from a third party or anything as of such. But you know, when you think of the repairs versus loss of productivity due to a derailment, the repairs might be a lot shorter than that possibility of derailment. But Steve covered that great.
Steven Fry
And Jim, if I could, I just want to add one thing to track inspection, is a lot of my customers like, well, how often should I do it? And I always say, you know, minimum 30 days, get somebody out there just
Heat Cold And Switch Risks
Steven Fry
to take a look. But there’s some factors that uh that uh happen that you may want to do it more often heat and cold. Now, I live in Wisconsin, we’ve had a hot, you know, hot month, right? And it’s been well into the 90s. Now, if it’s 85 degrees Fahrenheit or above, the railroad has to inspect our mainline daily. And so if you get a week-long heat wave of uh 90 degree weather, which we have, that rail’s expanding, and then you get what’s called a uh a track buckle or a thermal misalignment is what the railroad likes to call it, is where it’s it’s gonna heat, it’s gonna expand, and in some cases, like in curves or other, uh it can it can kick out. Or if you have a hard rain the night before and all of a sudden it softens up that ballast, and now that uh those ties and that track kind of kind of go down a little bit, it could start to buckle. The cold affects it too. So if it’s really cold out, if it’s uh 10 degrees Fahrenheit or below, then we have to get out there daily and inspect that main line because then it shrinks and it contracts, and you can have what’s called a broken rail. There is no magic dust to take out of my pocket to make this go away. It’s physics, right? And uh it’s gonna happen in the heat and the cold. And so if you do have a uh a hot spell like we have uh uh in the Midwest uh recently or anywhere in the in this country, you might want to get out there every other day and take a look because this can happen before a train comes, after train, or even under a train.
Jim Lenz, GEAPS (Host)
So that’s important. I’m glad you brought that up. I am also in Wisconsin. I’m out of the Green Bay, Wisconsin area in northeastern Wisconsin, near the Bay of Green Bay and a lot of rail systems here. But sidewalks, we have expansion joints, driveways, we have expansion joints, bridges are expansion joints. I was traveling on the highway, and just moments before the emergency personnel were on the highway because they, like you said, during this time this summer, we spent a lot of days in the 90s, and there’s no room for the materials to make up the the roads to expand, and it’s buckled. And thank goodness, because uh man, some of those tires could fly off or do a lot of damage to people and and uh things. The rail doesn’t hide to that. There’s still thermal expansion, nothing you can do about that. So you you really I just want to repeat, you said when we have those extreme temperatures, low or high, you said try and inspect those daily. Is that correct?
Steven Fry
If possible, yeah. And I understand that’s not always possible, but we shouldn’t be getting somebody out there, right? If you have a hot spell or a cold spell, yeah, um, you really shouldn’t be getting out there and uh just doing some measurements. Now, for example, if it’s straight track, I’d probably lay uh lay a tape measure down, you know, every every 50 feet or so curves. You’re gonna want to maybe do every every five to 10 feet switches. That’s gonna be that’s where all that movement is, right? You want to make sure that you get in there and just start inspecting those rods, make sure they’re not rubbing up against the ties, just because that that steel in there is gonna expand. And uh, and if that if that switch does need uh a little lubrication, uh we use a uh graphite-based lubricant to lubricate our switches. You don’t want to use uh grease or motor oil. That’s I get it, that’s immediate, and and but it’s also short-lived, right? And it’s also grease is gonna collect anything floating around in the air, like corn silk or anything like that. It’s just gonna start to gum up. So a graphite-based lubricant is best. And whoever, you know, the customers listening out there, they probably have some track maintenance. You don’t have to wait for those people. Have them leave a can of uh graphite-based lubricant, and you can apply it yourself anytime you get it, you get a tough switch. One other thing I do want to talk to our customers about is because we’re talking about track expansion. You go out there at seven o’clock in the morning, you operate a switch when it’s 50 degrees, and now you come back at four o’clock in the afternoon when it’s 87, that switch is gonna operate differently because it’s been sitting in the sun all day. You gotta be careful how you operate that switch. And that’s those are some things that we teach in our training gym is how to safely operate those switches. Treat it like a gun, like it’s gonna go off. So you gotta make sure once that switch expands, that switch handle could fly up.
Jim Lenz, GEAPS (Host)
From what you’ve seen in the field, where do facilities most commonly fall short when it comes to track inspection?
Steven Fry
Well, they think uh it’s gonna last forever. Uh, you know, and and there are a lot of great facilities out there, new and improved facilities that have larger rail. Now, speaking of rail, when you do your track inspection, something to identify is what size rail do you have? Now, the middle of the rail, so to speak, is called the web. On the web of the rail, on the gauge and the field side, you’re gonna see some numbers. Now, you’re gonna see probably 110 or 115 or 136. What those numbers indicate is that’s how many pounds that is every three feet. So if you have 115 pound rail, that’s 115 pounds every three feet. And that’s something uh that they can identify. So if they have to call somebody and say, hey, we got a we got a defect, they’re gonna say what size rail they have, that’s how they find it. But one thing that I see that that they forget about is to go out and do those track inspections, you know, uh go out and see if there’s any movement, anything taking place in those curves. Any of the customers listening are gonna do track improvement. Something to think about in the curves is instead of making it a timber tie, you know, a tie made out of wood, uh, depending on your product, if you want to go every third or fourth tie concrete or steel, then you wouldn’t have to worry about it so much down the road because that’s gonna hold the gauge better.
Jim Lenz, GEAPS (Host)
Interesting. Oh, neat. If someone listening today is responsible for track inspection at their facility, what are two or three things they should immediately double check after hearing this conversation?
Steven Fry
Well, one thing on the railroad is that we always have to use the same tape measure. So if you walk out the door with a Stanley tape measure, you always have to walk out the door with a Stanley tape measure. Same reason why Wrangulism car hards fit differently. I don’t know why, I don’t know what it is, but we always want to use the same tape measure. And then you want to document it. You want to make sure that you are providing documentation that you went outside this date, this employee checked at this location and found no problems, or maybe did find a problem. Like, for example, if you did go outside and you found a spike that had uh been pulled up out of the tie, what you want to do is try and push it down with your seal toed boot if you can. And if you can push it down with your boot, then that probably means it’s a bad tie. There’s no meat in there. But if it doesn’t go down, well, then it got pulled up somehow, someway, right? So then what you want to do is take a hammer, pound that spike down, squirt it with uh a little bit of paint, and then uh let your track, whoever does your track maintenance know, hey, we had a problem here. Now, if you see one spike, two spikes, probably not a whole lot of movement going on, eight, ten in a row, yeah, something’s moving, right?
Jim Lenz, GEAPS (Host)
Yeah.
Steven Fry
And it could be a very simple fix. We might have to come tamp it. Tamping uh gym is when we come and we either do it by hand or machine, but we try and get more jagged rocks underneath those ties so you don’t have that movement. Drainage is another big thing. If you got a low spot on your track where a lot of water sits, now that’s not good either. It’s gonna start rotten tie out.
Jim Lenz, GEAPS (Host)
That makes sense. Thank
Track Protection And Blue Flags
Jim Lenz, GEAPS (Host)
you. Let’s kind of move to track protection. This could be where maybe risk really escalates. For someone in the green industry, what does track protection actually mean in practice?
Steven Fry
So when I talk about track protection, what I’m talking about is that in the railroad industry, we use what’s called a blue flag. A blue flag means that somebody is on or around or under the equipment. It’s uh generally displayed, generally, I say, at the beginning of the of the track. And it’s just a blue sign. It could say stop equipment hooked up or stop men working, could, or it could just be blue, or it could be a blue light at night to signify that uh that that somebody’s in that track. Maybe they’re uh maybe they got some tank cars in there full of uh tar and they gotta put up some heating coils up to them to heat that product before they can before they can get it out. Or maybe they’re stenciling, or maybe they’re on top of the manway covers or something, but that blue flag is an industry uh communication piece to say, do not come in here. Somebody is on, under, or around these cars, you can’t couple up to them and uh you can’t move them. Now, when a railroad professional sees that, they will not come in there. That is a form of lockout tag out. And that blue flag means can’t come in here. Railroad knows that because if they come in there, that’s gonna be the job. They will not have a job if they do it. And only the same people who put it up can take it down, very similar to lockout takeout, uh, because uh that that can also cause miscommunication, right? So only the people that put it up can take it down. And we use a blue flag for that, and it also comes into uh, and I’ll let Noel speak to this point when it comes into working with hazardous material.
Noel Christensen
If we’re thinking about track protection, the concept behind track protection is to prevent entry by other rail equipment, being your own or of a foreign rail company when men and women are working on, under, or between the pieces of rail equipment. Like Steve said, in the blue flag, in the hazardous materials industry, the blue flag does become a regulatory requirement that must be in place to notify the approach of any oncoming equipment that that track is out of service due to the men women being on, under, or between the equipment.
Jim Lenz, GEAPS (Host)
Ah, very nice. Okay, good good good understanding there. Thank you for sharing that. Uh what do you think you two are considered some of the most dangerous situations you’ve seen or that concern you most when it comes to unsecured or improperly handled rail cars?
Handbrakes Clearance Points And Runaways
Steven Fry
Jim, what I do see is uh people not putting on enough handbrakes. There’s two types of braking system on a rail car: air and handbrake. They’re separate. Now, the air is also temporary. So when the train crew or the industrial crew, whoever, once they cut away from these rail cars, they put them in emergency. They hear the uh sound coming out of the brake pipe, hose, and the piston comes out of the brake cylinder, and that car is then an emergency. However, that’s temporary and it’s meant to be. The angle cock is left open, it should be. Better not be bottled in the air, but the angle cock should be left open. That air eventually will bleed out. Our only way of knowing that we’ve done our due diligence is to apply a proper number of handbrake. You got to put those handbrakes on to make sure that they are not gonna go anywhere, especially on if the customer has a track grade where if they’re gonna have uh a slight hill or so to speak, a track grade at their facility, you want to make sure that uh that you put enough handbrakes on there. One thing that I have seen is uh, and I continue to see it, is people not putting enough on. Now, the railroad actually used to have a formula, 10% plus two. So if you had a hundred-car train, you’d get 12 handbrakes. But that eventually failed us where the 12 handbrakes wasn’t enough. And so now we we have to do what’s called sufficient amount. You put four handbrakes on 10 loaded rail cars, and we actually on the railroad have to do what’s called a push-pull test, where we release the air and we cause or allow Slack to adjust. And if that happens and they stop, that’s a good test. But if they don’t stop, then we know we need more handbrakes. And so that’s kind of how we do that push-pull test. Again, like I said, that formula failed us at one point in time. So now we just have to make sure we’re putting on enough handbrakes. I’d rather see a person walk back and apply two, three more handbrakes than watch them roll away. Because once they roll away, it’s too late.
Noel Christensen
As Steve always says, it’s pretty easy to get the rail cars moving. The trick is to get them to stop. And one of the most dangerous things that I see is not enough handbrakes being applied. The cars then eventually roll away. And if they roll away into a location where people are working, that changes the dynamics quite a bit of rather than it just rolling in and bumping into some other cars.
Jim Lenz, GEAPS (Host)
Yeah, that’s that’s very serious at that point.
Noel Christensen
You also bring up the point in that question about improperly handled rail cars. One of the things that facilities need to understand is when they leave rail cars for a pickup or they’re leaving rail cars in a yard track type facility, to not leave the cars past a clearance point to where they are fouling or in the way of the next switch. So if somebody were to pass by, they’re actually too close to the switch, and we have sideswipes in those locations. And uh, even though the cars were tied down with the handbrakes, they were not pushed into the track far enough to clear adjacent movements.
Jim Lenz, GEAPS (Host)
Interesting. I mean, you one or both of you just mentioned earlier something really interesting that uh the type of product being shipped can actually influence a level of scrutiny and even draw attention from regulators. Like the FRE. Uh, can you explain how product type changes the risk profile and what facilities need to be aware of?
Hazmat Shipments And Shipper Of Record
Noel Christensen
Yeah, let me jump in on that one. One of the things that I have seen in industry, and this plays in with both the grain industry as well as the hazardous materials world. Some facilities bring in an anhydrous ammonia. Yes. Now that they’ve brought in anhydrous ammonia, that does change the game because the shipping document of that car, when they release it, will have their location and they become the shipper of record of that car. So I know that the blending process takes place. We bring in the the corrosive materials, we bring in the anhydras, we blend the two products, and then that car becomes released back to where it came from. Even though the grain facility had no interaction with that car, their name is probably going to be listed as the shipper of record on the Weighbill. And now they are shipping hazardous materials and they need to meet the requirements of code 49, hazmat training, hazmat inspection, hazardous materials certification from the FRA. So when they get those anhydris cars and they think, wow, they just came in, somebody’s gonna go out there and do the blending. It’s not our problem, it’s not our responsibility. It all depends on the shipper of record listed on that weigh bill. And then that can change whose authority of that car it is.
Jim Lenz, GEAPS (Host)
Do you find that people are not aware of that at times?
Noel Christensen
You know, Jim, I’ve seen a lot of this. I spent six years as a FRA regulator in one of the states in the union here. And a lot of facilities, they may only get this process done one time a year. Okay. Or maybe it’s every other year that they blend this process and they just don’t know that when that hazmat car shows up, it lands on their property. And then when they release the car, they have become the shipper of record. And yeah, it is a big surprise to a lot of facilities that all of a sudden, now I fall under the code 49 hazardous material regulations because we shipped one hazmat car. One of the big things that uh came out in some training that I had done was the facility thought that the blending group was doing all of the rail car inspection, where the blending group, any bolt they loosen, they tighten. They do not inspect the rest of the rail cart to ensure that it’s proper for transportation. That really falls on to whoever the shipper of record on the way bill is. And many times it turns out to be a grain elevator or a small fertilizer facility.
Jim Lenz, GEAPS (Host)
Anything you want to add to that?
Steven Fry
No, yeah, that no hit it on the head. And uh we we see this a lot where you know the the rail car comes in and they’re like, Well, we don’t touch it, we have nothing to do with it. Why do we need to worry? And to Noel’s point, because you’re on the way bill, as that car leaves your facility, and now it ends up in the bottom of a river. And if it had a bad valve, bad gasket, or a loose nut, all the acronyms are coming back to you, right, Noel?
Jim Lenz, GEAPS (Host)
Yes, sir. And like you said, you probably because they maybe only do that once a year or just a couple of times a year. Just because you’re not aware of that doesn’t mean they’re not responsible. So this is a really important message here.
Noel Christensen
Yeah, this this this is a this is a good message, um, you know, and there again, there may be times where it’s not the actual local facility, but it might be their corporate headquarters listed in a another community, depending on if this is uh you know, a small facility or a large grain facility, and they may just not be aware of the fact that, yes, when the car is then shipped out, they become the shipper of record on that way, bill.
Jim Lenz, GEAPS (Host)
Shipper of record changes there. Okay. Can you explain how product type changes, the risk profile, and what facilities need to be aware of?
Noel Christensen
Well, you know, one of the things Steve talked a little bit about the blue flag and doing uh, you know, a due diligence. If it is a grain facility, the blue flag is just a really nice additional warning mechanism for any train operations in the area. If you are dealing with a hazardous material changing the risk, well, then it becomes a regulatory mandate. And the sign has, you know, the requirement of being 12 inches by 15 inches with the word stop written in four-inch letters. So depending up again on the product can change risk, obviously, or regulatory requirement.
Jim Lenz, GEAPS (Host)
Interesting. Do you think green facilities often underestimate when it comes to product risk and regulatory expectations? Or do you think they have a pretty good handle on that?
Noel Christensen
You know, I’m gonna let Steve, uh, I’m gonna let Steve talk on on that one. You know, I like I said, I spend a lot of time with the hazardous material groups. They are pretty aware of these requirements and regulations, and they they do their due diligence to meet or exceed the federal regulations. Steve can speak a lot better on that grain side.
Jim Lenz, GEAPS (Host)
Yeah, but what do what do grain facilities often underestimate, maybe? That might be a better question.
Noel Christensen
I guess I guess what I see is a lot of them don’t know what they don’t know, right? And you know, they’ve had turnover and attrition just like everybody else. And well, Fred didn’t say anything before he retired, and I didn’t know nothing about it. And so, but that’s not gonna that’s not gonna relieve them from any responsibility. So if a grain facility uh like we’ve been talking about does have anhydrous ammonia come in and it’s being blended into a liquid fertilizer or something like that, uh, the requirements, like to Noel’s point, they they they change. And now you’re gonna be uh the the FRA now can come in and you are in a regulatory uh position where you need the blue flag and you need uh track protection in the form of a derail or the switch of direct access to where that tank car is is placed has to be line lock checked away from that rail car uh with uh with only one person having that key. Lots of different things to that, but uh uh to Noel’s point, you’re gonna if they if the grain facility is gonna be having that, then they fall under all sorts of different types of of uh trap protection to include derails and blue flags.
Training Gaps And Safer Switching
Jim Lenz, GEAPS (Host)
Great. Let’s talk about training. Where do you two see the biggest gamps today in how people are trained around rail safety and grain operations?
Noel Christensen
Yeah, I’ll be honest. So I see a lot of this where Fred trained in Barry, Barry trained in Mary, Mary trained in Steve, and before you know it, it just got all diluted. You know, if let’s say, for example, uh a grain uh grain facility has a locomotive. How are they trained in? Touch this button, don’t touch this, don’t touch this, and hit this every 10 seconds. And uh there was really no training in that at all. And a lot of times what I see is uh if they have a locomotive, whether it’s the grain elevator’s locomotive, or maybe they’re utilizing foreign power where the BNSF just drops off the train and says, here, you got 12 or 14, 16 hours to either load or unload it, best of luck. And they don’t know how to use the uh air system, they just use the vehicle brakes, the engine brakes, right? And they’re knocking those cars around and uh and all that stuff. So where I where I come in is I teach them how to railroad. Just because their their their paycheck doesn’t say BNSF or CP on it, they’re still railroaders right now at that point, right? And uh and you you know you you want to make sure that they have the proper training. And we train whether they have a locomotive, a trapmobile, a shuttle wagon, doesn’t matter. Even a lot of facilities use a front end loader with a knuckle attachment. I see that a lot, but my only concern with that is there’s the air system’s not hooked up when they move the cars with that. Because the air system, when it is hooked up and it is pressurized, if a knuckle happens to break between two rail cars, then the air system is gonna dump and it’s gonna stop all movement. If you’re just using a front end loader to move cars and a knuckle breaks, nothing’s gonna stop until it hits whatever it’s gonna hit. So that’s where I see a lot of them is uh is they just don’t uh have the have the training. And you know, to to the elevator’s point, you know, they were just expected to work around railroad equipment because of their product. No one ever bothered to trade them. Or another thing I see is when they get they they buy a brand new trackmobile. Yeah, thing shows up, comes off the flatbed. The guy from uh whoever company they bought him from shows them how to run it, shows them how to do this, but they never hooked up any rail cars to it, right? That’s a whole different animal right there. When you start hooking 10, 15 rail cars up to a trackmobile or a shuttle wagon, that that’s a completely different story right there. You know, and and looking and answering that, probably one of the biggest gaps I see is that a lot of the grain elevators and or hazardous material facilities, they don’t know that this type of training is even available. They work with their team, they do the best they can with the tools that have been provided. Maybe they’ve reached out to a class one railroad. They just don’t understand that third-party training by railroad employees is available for their disposal.
Jim Lenz, GEAPS (Host)
Yeah, that’s a good point. I I can imagine that would be the case in many scenarios. And so this uh channel, the Whole Grain Podcast, could help those individuals uh say, hey, this does exist. Uh, for example, what your you and your organization do. Uh, very nice. How important is it for facility teams to understand railroad laws and operating practices, not just their internal procedures. I mean, some people may do that depending on the facility. That is their job. Other people, that may be part of their job. And then there’s a lot of turnover. It’s important, though, isn’t it?
Steven Fry
It is, Jim. And I appreciate you asking because just because they’re not regulated doesn’t mean they can hide behind the fact that we don’t have to do this. You do have a responsibility, right? When those cars come into the facility, we teach it what to look for as far as giving a just a kind of a kick the tire kind of a thing on a rail car. What do the wheels look like? And Noel’s training, he goes into the gaskets, the valves and all that stuff. But it really is important because uh while that car is in our facility, we have we may have a very unique opportunity to fix that rail car. You know, these rail cars they go up and down from Seattle to Chicago. A lot of them go a thousand miles, two thousand miles, three thousand miles in some cases, before any railroad professional will pull it over and take a look at it with a magnifying glass. So there’s a lot of things that are happening to those wheels, the ladders, there’s a lot of things uh that are happening. And so we like to we also like to teach when we do rail safety classes, we like to teach our customers what to look for and help us out because those cars are eventually gonna leave the facility and go out in the public, right?
Jim Lenz, GEAPS (Host)
Absolutely. If a facility wants to improve their training starting tomorrow, what would you recommend as a first step?
Noel Christensen
Can I take that one first off, Steve? Please do, buddy. Okay. Well, in regards to that, Jim, I think the first step is going to be to identify the expectation of the employees. What do we want them to be able to accomplish during the day? And I would also recommend having a standard operating procedure in place. So if an employee is unsure of what they needed to be doing, that facility would at least have their own expectations printed. I would also then say that to reach out to somebody that can be of a consultant style or give direct training to the groups.
Jim Lenz, GEAPS (Host)
Sounds like it makes sense for sure.
Noel Christensen
And Steve, I know you had some things or have a thing or two you probably want to say on that.
Steven Fry
One thing I would do want to add to that is a lot of times when I come up to a facility, they really don’t know what the policy, procedure, or rule is. Some facilities they do ride the side of the rail car when they’re doing a long shove into a track. And no one actually trained them how to ride the equipment. And then when you when you when you when you come into a grain facility and you ask the you ask the uh employees, do you guys ride the side of the rail car? Yes, we do. What’s your policy say? No idea. Are you allowed to ride it? I don’t know. We just were expected or told to. And when now on the railroad, we get on and off moving equipment, but we’re trained to do that.
Noel Christensen
That’s a good point. Very good point. So again, just kind of adding, you know, have some type of standard operating procedure. Make sure that everybody is aware of the expectations and the beliefs of the company on how we’re going to move on or above the rail equipment.
Steven Fry
And every facility out there should have a stop work procedure. If they feel it’s unsafe or they that they don’t exactly understand what’s being done or what to do, stop. Talk about it before you get into a place where you can’t get out of.
Jim Lenz, GEAPS (Host)
That’s a good overview. Very good statement there. Thank you. All right. I want to slow down for a moment and come back to something I think you’ve said earlier, because I think it really captures the importance of this conversation. When a rail car leaves a facility and heads out onto the main line past schools, churches, and communities. What should facilities be asking themselves before they let it go?
Steven Fry
Yeah, and that’s where we talk a little bit about that inspection, you know, taking a look at the wheels and uh and uh to Noel’s point earlier about the gaskets and the valves, if that’s a tank car. Um, if it doesn’t look right, it might not be right. You know, take a picture of it, send it to me, send it to somebody, uh the the railroad that services you, anything, because yeah, a lot of people tend to shrug that off and say, well, it’s a railroad’s problem. Railroad’s not maybe not going to be looking at that for a while. We don’t know. Or it could get missed. The thing is, is when that car does leave the facility, just to your point, Jim, it’s gonna be going past schools, churches, it’s gonna be out in public. And before you know it, it’s on channel five with a with a helicopter hovering over it, and things are going boom.
Noel Christensen
You know, the short answer of that would be uh, did they do their due diligence and make proper inspections and offer a good rail car back into the network?
Jim Lenz, GEAPS (Host)
Good reflection.
Warning Signs And What Good Looks Like
Jim Lenz, GEAPS (Host)
When you walk into a facility, gentlemen, what are the warning signs that tell you something isn’t quite right?
Steven Fry
Housekeeping, number one. I mean, or a bunch of stuff laying on the ground instead of put up on shelves, tools leaning against the wall, fire exits blocked. You know, the biggest rut that anybody or any facility can get into is why do you do things that way? Well, because well, because we’ve always done it that way, and there’s no growth in that statement. That’s one of the warning signs that I see is uh that they’re just kind of going through the motions kind of a thing. All right, train showed up, we got this to do, this to do, this to do, complacency, right? All right, well, we do this all the time, we do this every day, and nobody takes a 5,000-foot view to see if we can be doing it better or safer.
Noel Christensen
One of the things that I would say would be attitude towards safety. Are the employees wearing any type of positive protection PPE? Um, if they’re not wearing their PPE, probably not following all the regulatory requirements either. So attitude towards safety would be my biggest thing that I would look at for a direct kind of understanding of a facility.
Steven Fry
Yeah, so when we actually do training, Jim, uh a lot of our training uh at the at the very beginning, you know, the switches, the handbrakes, uh, all that stuff is pretty easy, but you can you can teach uh skill, but you can’t teach attitude to know’s point. And a lot of times what we try to do is have people try to see the failure in something, uh a task or procedure before experiencing the failure. PPE is one of them, Denol’s point. Are we wearing glasses, steel tool boots? Uh I see a lot of guys out there doing lids with tennis shoes on.
Jim Lenz, GEAPS (Host)
Ouch. Great responses. Those are real world insights. So on the flip side, what do the best facilities do differently when it comes to track inspection and protection?
Noel Christensen
I think the best facilities have the expectations of the men and women doing the task. They are wholly committed to safety. They’ve developed and built a safety culture that engages the people. It gives them the opportunity to find things that are incorrect or could lead to some other type of incident. And when those things are brought to senior management, action is taken.
Steven Fry
And then one thing I’d like to add to that, Jim, if I could, is they’re they’re committed. Now, let’s just say, for example, they put so much dollars into their capital every year, and those dollars are gonna include maintenance, uh, training, uh, locomotive maintenance, whatever. So uh they might put Uh, let’s just say for argument’s sake, $100,000 into capital every year. And this year, I’ve every fifth tie is going to get redone, or we’re going to up upgrade the track, whatever. They keep at it because if you just ignore it, it’s not going to get better by itself. It’s not going to go away. And before you know it, uh, you you might be looking at a three million dollar project when had you just put a little money aside each year and done this, done this, did this, you wouldn’t be in this situation.
Jim Lenz, GEAPS (Host)
Plan for maintenance, you need to happen. Nothing lasts forever. Nothing’s maintained forever. Everything needs to be uh maintained essentially, and and so also appropriate funds for yeah.
Steven Fry
One thing I would add to that, Jim, is any facility, any customer out there listening right now, have a professional track inspector come in twice a year, once in the spring, once in the fall, before and after the the the cold weather. Just have it professionally done twice a year, and you can pick up the rest.
Jim Lenz, GEAPS (Host)
And based on what I’m finding, besides appropriate funds for funding, appropriate funds for safety training. Real important here for sure. All right.
Start Stop Continue Plus Next Steps
Jim Lenz, GEAPS (Host)
Next segment, final segment, rapid takeaways. So, gentlemen, what we’re gonna do, I’m gonna give you a few statements here for our listeners for quick takeaways. When it comes to track inspection and track protection, what are three things every grain facility should start doing, stop doing, and continue doing? So I’m gonna go back uh to the first one there. Start doing when it comes to track inspection and track protection, what are three things every grain facility should start doing?
Steven Fry
Take a look around, see what you’re doing now. I mean, uh just just don’t just don’t say, well, we’ve always done it this way or so-and-so’s got it. What is the policy procedure in this? Uh are we doing track inspections? Are we do we need track protection? Uh what are we doing? Uh as far as uh you know, do we really honestly know all the questions? Start asking questions if you don’t know the answers. Start asking questions.
Noel Christensen
I’m gonna go with engage their employees. They should train their employees and they should work together as a team.
Jim Lenz, GEAPS (Host)
Fantastic. All right, when it comes to track inspection and track protection, what are three things every green facility should stop doing.
Steven Fry
Ignoring it. Just like we’ve been talking about. It it it it’s uh the track is gonna deteriorate, things are gonna happen. Uh get out there, get on it, and uh stop thinking to that your employees know what they’re doing out there. You you gotta you and and one thing I do see is a lot of supervisors not out there really knowing what they’re looking at when their employees are out there moving this equipment. They just see their employees moving this equipment, and uh to them it’s that’s how it’s always been done, but they don’t even know if they see that they’re doing something wrong.
Noel Christensen
I would say that a facility should stop relying on the air brakes of a rail car to keep it in place. I think we should stop doing things that we know are unsafe or doing things that I know I haven’t been trained on just to get the project completed.
Jim Lenz, GEAPS (Host)
Excellent, excellent. Thank you, gentlemen. And then finally, when it comes to track inspection and track protection, what are three things Evergreen Facility should continue doing?
Steven Fry
I gotta go with training. We have a lot of uh uh customers that uh we’re at their facility every year, every two years. They we keep coming back, they they they know that uh the uh the the training is is uh is is the best. They invest in their employees and they they they they take the time to to put them through the training. You gotta continue doing that. You can’t just train somebody and let it go and say, well, he was trained 10 years ago, it still should be good. No, gotta keep doing it, gotta continue doing it.
Jim Lenz, GEAPS (Host)
Thank you. Fantastic.
Noel Christensen
One of the things uh that I think they should continue doing that Steve didn’t mention is I think they should continue to listen to this type of podcast that Jim has been putting on here today. You know, I just I just want you know, this is fantastic, you know, this this line of questioning. This is just fantastic that you do this and you get this out to the people.
Jim Lenz, GEAPS (Host)
Yeah, it is important. I mean, we connect, believe it or not, with a hundred and I think eleven countries around the world with this show right now. But uh I appreciate that. And I I really appreciate you guys coming on here. Uh, you’ve done so much, and I I know this is just from conversations that come in in person at Jeeps Exchange, from conversations come in email and phone call. There are inquiries that come about rail safety so much. And one of the things that you reiterated, both of you in this conversation is that they might not be aware of the third-party opportunities. So before we go, there are different places and go, but you thank you for being a guest in the show and bringing great value to the whole green podcast here. Please share how they would get in contact with you or organization, maybe wondering right now, after this great conversation, how do we do that?
Steven Fry
Yeah, absolutely great question, Jim. And and uh because of uh we offer so many different services. Anyone out there listening who is interested in more, please contact us at nprail.com. That’s northernplainsrail.com, nprail.com, or 85567-7245. The short number of that is 855-5NPRail. And yeah, we have a little phone system you can get a hold of uh somebody or look us up online, Northern Plains Rail Services, and click on our website.
Jim Lenz, GEAPS (Host)
Thank you very much, Stevens. Thank you, Noel. Uh, this has been incredibly valuable, not just from a compliance standpoint, but from uh responsibility standpoint, because by the end of the day, you know, this isn’t just about operations, it’s about people, it’s about communities and doing things the right way. And sometimes people are put in a comfortable position because they started, or maybe they feel internally, I maybe we need to have a standard operating procedure, and they do, or maybe they don’t, and and maybe it needs to be uh fixed or aligned. And like you said, there we’ve always done it this way, and this is not just for this industry. We’re hearing that in all sorts of industries, and we all know about that, but there are things that can be done to improve. And I think this episode helps people learn, grow, develop, think, and then act. And that’s why I love having you guys here. It’s special to have you and thank you so much. I have a great deep respect for the history of the rail that you have that you bring to our audience here, but also your devotion to education and safety. You both have a long history in that, and so thank you so much.
Steven Fry
Thank you, Jim, for having us. It’s a pleasure. Really was.
Noel Christensen
Thank you, Jim. And again, appreciate what you’re doing, getting the message of railroad safety and industrial safety out to the men and women in the work.
Jim Lenz, GEAPS (Host)
All right. Good day, gentlemen.
Steven Fry
Thank you, Jim.
Noel Christensen
Good day.
Jim Lenz, GEAPS (Host)
Stephen and Noel, thank you for joining us and for sharing your expertise and experience with the whole grain podcast audience. This conversation reminds us that rail safety at a grain facility is not simply a matter of checking a box or meeting a minimum requirement. It is about understanding the condition of the track, properly inspecting and securing rail cars, protecting employees who work around them, and recognizing the responsibility of facility assumes before allowing a rail car to enter the greater rail network. Once that rail car leaves the facility, it may travel through neighborhoods and past schools, churches, workplaces, and communities. That is why the question raised during today’s conversation is so important. Before we let it go, have we done everything necessary to make sure it is safe? Stephen and Noelle, thank you for helping us think more carefully about the responsibility and for giving our listeners practical steps they can take back to their own operations. And to everyone listening in the United States and across 113 countries reached by the Whole Grain Podcast, this show, thank you for spending part of your day with us. The grain industry depends on knowledgeable people who are prepared to make sound decisions, recognize hazards, and lead safe, effective operations. Jeeps supports that professional’s growth through online courses, technical resources, webinars, conferences, credentialing opportunities, and a world network of grain industry professionals. Whether you are new to the industry, preparing for greater responsibilities, or looking into strengthening that knowledge of your entire team, Jeeps provides opportunities to learn from industry experts and connect with people who understand the challenges you face. To learn more about Jeeps, the Grain Elevator and Processing Society, explore our educational offerings, or listen to additional episodes of the Whole Grand Podcast, visit Jeeps.com. That’s G E A P S dot com. You can also find the Whole Grand Podcast through your favorite podcast platform. Subscribe or follow the show so you don’t miss future conversations. And consider sharing this episode with someone at your facility who is responsible for rail operations, safety, training, maintenance, or track inspection. For Stephen Fry, Noel Christensen, and everyone at Jeefs, I’m Jim Lenz. Until next time, stay safe, stay curious, and continue learning as we work together to feed, fuel, and clothe the world.
